¶    Opening
(Participants: Key, Linus, Rowan, Arnost, Jana, Lukaczs, Edurne, Sheila, Robert, Pier, Miguel)

- How to welcome newcomers? personal "adoptions", talk more often to them, introduce them to "members", we are all members
- SqEK is important because our connection with local struggles
- Why people join?
- Why people stop joining?
- We should distinguish SqEK as a group and SqEK-meetings (usually organised by a local host)
- There are different dimensions of radicalisation (cases of Can Batllo and Astra in Spain)
- We should be more transparent in our decision-making and communication
Comment - at this meeting it was also decided to change the program around and move the internal meeting to Sunday from Monday - this was a bad idea both because people from outside the collective might have planned to attend certain presentations at certain announced times which were then moved, and because some people in the collective had planned their travel for Tuesday based on the internal meeting being scheduled for Monday

¶    Squatted Social Centres and the housing question in Europe, by Robert González
Presented the main findings of the comparative chapter in the forthcoming book published by Palgrave
Discussion about the four types of relations between social centres and housing

¶    The squatting movement in the Basque Country: a movement that creates culture, by Sheila Padrones
-In Donostia / San Sebastián most squats were evicted, with the implication of the municipal authorities
-In the other municipalities around Donostia there were more negotiations between squatters and local authorities
-Since 2008: more squatted houses, and also more negotiations with owners
-There are some Social Centres (Gaztetxes, literally Youth Houses) with not-so-young activists and also with non-independentist ideology, so they don´t call themselves Gaztetxes any more, just Social Centres
-Independentist squats are dominant
-Squatters and PAH (housing activists) share information and support each other, but there are seldom squats for housing promoted by the PAH
-Squatting movements seems less radical nwoadays because there are less labour struggles and also because ETA (independentist armed group) is not active any longer

¶    Radical emancipation in the post-communist city: possible urban scenarios of urban grassroots activism in Prague and beyond, by Michaela Pixová
-Except squatters, most urban movements in Prague initiated around the global financial crisis (2008)
-Squatting was in a ghetto until the late 1990s
-More interactions with residents afterwards
-Some activists entered the city government for some time: participatory budgetting, opposed privatisation of council housing
-Is there a radical potential in reformist movements?
-Communist past: progressive people is accused of wanting to restore the past
-There are also corrupt politicians within a market economy
-People are now more de-illusioned about capitalism and democracy: growing social movements
-Members of the Green Party hang out in Klinika. Also socialists, communists. They don´t participate in the assembly.
-Groups such as Mamatata (a sort of parents' club) are more moderate than most in Klinika, but evolved to a sort of "self-managed nursery"
-They will move soon to a public-owned, and more secure-stable, space
-Squatters supported the lobby for social housing without being core members

¶    Welcoming
- "Adoption" of new members/ attendants to the meeting by more experienced members of Sqek
- Introduction round (Frank, Dominika, Piere, Sheila, Kay, Xaviera, Thomas, Linus, Greta, Jane, Ieva, Pieter, Hans, Mia, Michaela, Jan, Jeannette, Andre, Honsa, Gandalf, Lucasz, Jana, Victor, Arnost, Edward, Tim, Miguel, Bjorn, Julia)
 
topics suggested during the welcoming round: G20, forest occupations

¶    Workshop, by Dominika & Miguel
- cooperation, collaboration as a publication – texts about squatting actions which are particularly interesting, important, which are formative (successful or failed, up to individual judgement) – not specifically looking for contributions from the West – contributions from activists/ researchers – case studies, critical discourse analysis – themes: coalitions, brokerage and social dynamics, repressions and its contestations, legalisation and institutionalisation, urban commons and self-management
- aim for collective research,
- collect data after this meeting, present outcomes during the next meeting
- not only Western squatting projects as a contrast to previous publications (eg. connection in Barcelona to Mexico), not to restrict ourselves to Western Europe, untypical cases also welcome (eg. housing struggles that rely on squatting),
- intention of avoiding that people would work by themselves alone

Dividing into groups, discuss degree of interest/ commitment to the project

Plenary, reactions to the proposal:
– Movokeur project, previous sqek project experience – span out of control, took longer than expected, meetings were not attended, collaboration didn't work, communication problems – academic project, interested in activist texts – feeling instrumentalised – costs of publishing books
– She imagines a book of narratives, reading for activists
– Partnerships of academics and activists, symmetrical partnership
–Global encyclopaedia of informality, contributions doesn't need to consume a lot of time, speak about things you know
– Fairy tale narratives of squatting ("snow white"), reinterpreting narratives from a squatter's perspective
- Personal stories
– Who is addressed, how to make the project progressive
– Learning from specific contexts, learning from each other, going beyond the local perspective, 'documenting stories'
– Maker movement, coalitions within factories, environmental
– PR failures, events that lead up to the squatting ban, emotionally charged issue of squatters leaving a building with contraptions installed which were interpreted as booby traps, power of interpretation left to the police (2009), long-term repercussions of one's actions, instrumentalisation by politicians, influence of one's actions on general movement independent of one's individual situation
– Squatters provided photos and statements, few general media attention
- Proposal: case studies written by activists, academics reacting, organise work on topics rather than case studies, Klinika as an example, efforts for legalisation (specific to local context?)
– Enschede, what it feels like to leave a place and visit other project, travelling life
– Squatting means opening up free spaces, squats as temporary liberations from colonisation (?), therapeutic writing project?
– Editor, institutionalisation, squatting failing in Sweden, repressed by established institutions
– Similarity to Norway? Repression by large charitable organisations towards squatting
– Tends to commit to more than one's ability, dissertation about Klinika, institutionalisation of Klinika, lack of self-management
– Not interested in providing an outside view onto projects, not interested in academic writing, examples of struggles from decentralised positions, involve people active in concrete struggles (eg. City Plaza Hotel Athens, refugee struggles in Berlin, ZAD)
– Possibility of collaborating with activists through interviews
– Language of academia, in anthropology language like “case studies“ wouldn't be used – who should be writing?
– Academics perspectives should be critical, increase amount of first-hand information 
– Popular book: initiated as a group project but almost all people who were interested to participate left the process, only one left to do it by himself
– Academic writing published more quickly than popular writing, personal ambitions catered to more through academia
– Academic publishing has the advantage of reviewing
– Has been interviewed about activist communities communicating through social media, state surveillance (connection to squatting movement in Turkey?)
– Proposal to think about publication medium
– Translation to eg. Czech, Turkish, accessible to non native speakers
- “Bad English policy“
– No borders policies, necessary critical stance towards cultural borders
– De Correspondent – policy for writing about topics in series (editors involved focus on one topic)
– Joining up to an existing publication
– Trespass?
– Trespass is also for non-academic publications – guest editing an issue would be possible, languages: Dutch, English, French, Catalan, Spanish, peer review for some articles, not all
– Medium of a wiki, flexibility, option of translating to various languages – website with forums, option of commenting
– Submitting to Trespass! Stages of publications, different scales, stages
– Funded project? Facilitate translation
– Make content from zines and local narratives accessible
– Not producing content, archiving existing content, translating zines, publications
– Visual impairment/ online content more accessible to him

Summary: 
What kind of publication should this be? Academic book/ online publication
Aiming for academic content/ texts that are useful for people in stuggles to learn from each other
Combining forms of texts, guest editing issue of Trespass
Taking initial publications with Trespass as a starting point for further publications
Case proposals: Hans (Amsterdam), Honsa (Klinika), Jeannette+Victor+Jan (Enschede, travelling perspective), Tim (anthropology dissertation on Klinika), squatting in fiction/ fairy tales, existing

Summary group 1: 
Immigration and squatting
Research from different perspectives
Making the content comparable through installing a framework
Pointing out subjectivity of contributions
Network of different places, defining what squatting is nowadays
Reacting to given situations from different local experiences
Identifying common connections between projects, role of a mediator
Research on similar topics
Freedom to interpret the cases
Four themes as entry points, set of questions in common, set of questions for specific cases

Practical suggestions about how to go further: 
1 month of time to decide on contributions, another month to produce common frameworks

How to speak about format
- Deciding on the format: medium before producing/ looking at contributions and then deciding on the shape of the project
- Speaking about ambitions for the project to give a feeling for
- Open to publish in different places, academia exclusionary approach, not opposed to publishing in academia, part of dedication to research needs to be published within academia but important to publish more widely also, open to more flexible formats
- Combining media, video, mapping with text publications
- Language issue, project in English is less attractive, wish for a 'useful' project then translation to e.g. French/ content produced in different languages
- Target group - activists, inspired by content, bridging labels of 'academia' or 'activism'

¶    Presentation on Klinika, by Honza
-It works as a health clinic between 1960 and 2009
-Occupied in 2014 for 10 days and then eviction
-Negotiation followed and they got 1 year contract
-Project: education and social work
-2015: they helped refugees... in response, media and political attacks
-February 2016: nazis tried to set the Social Centre on fire... in response, a lot of social and political support, but still seen as a "security threat" by elites
-March 2016: sued in court to evict them
-Petition to the City of Prague to purchase the building (it belongs to a state-owned Railway company now)
-May 2016: two bomb threats, with evictions by police and re-occupations by activists
-Constitutional verdict: police shouldn´t evict without court order
-Water is currently turned off (officially)
-Electricity is still being paid
-They pay low fees to a friendly lawyer
-Green Party supported Klinika initially, but not now
-Most neighbours do not care much about Klinika... some oppose, some support (Mamatata is an example of engaged residents)
-There are around 5000 homeless in the city, and they squat occasionally
-Mass media are very aggressive about Klinika: illegal, no respect for private property, dirty, lazy, drugs...
-Anarchist ideology but many activities are not focused on that, and open to all kinds of people and proposals
-They help other groups to recruit and thrive
-Squatting is now more legitimised: there are more agreements about empty buildings and temporary use
-International mobilisation to press the Czech state helped Klinika leverage in negotiations

Challenges:
– Diversity: diverse collective as a representative project comparable with general society/ lots of disagreements, different necessities and expectations
In terms of age and educations, there is homogeneity
– Process
– Ties to local community: neighborhood is not well connected, little
– Openness vs. Trust: decision making processes cannot be inclusive, security threats...
– Exhaution of individuals in the core group
– Money: 50 eur a day after the contract ended in March 2016, funding through donations used to work well, now larger challenges to get funding
– Klinika as a precedent, first time ever that there's a court case in the context of the Czech squatting movement

¶    Media representations of squatting, by Dominika & Edward

Dominika: research on dominant discourse around squatting in Sweden
- Themes covered: squatting action and eviction are usually covered, violence, illegality, undemocratic/ anti-democratic practice, “troublemakers“, tenants' organisation have distanced themselves from the practice of squatting since the 1960s
- Labels to talk about squatters: squatters (60s), tenants, youths (70s) youths (80s), activists, extremists, terrorists, 'the autonomous' (90s), activists, youths, (2000s)
- Themes: youth phase (60s), police actions, illegality, objectification (70s), moralising discourse, escalation of violence, militancy of squatters, call for disciplinary measures (80s), armed squatters, police not efficient enough, growing movement, autonomy (90s)
- 2001, Gothenburg: violent confrontation during summit – squatters described as extremists, “paranoia of the rising movement“
- 2008: discourse shifts, peaceful tactics, more positive attitude

Edward: Criminalisation of squatting as an entry point to research on squatting
- Portrayal of squatting as 'stealing one's house while one goes out to get milk'
- Book: 'Moral panics and folk devils' – Squatting was turning into a folk devil
- Teun van Dijk / Norman Fairclough: critical discourse analysis – those in power positions use media discourses to direct attention and image
- Comparison between squatting in the UK and in the Netherlands (with Deanna)
- Criminalisation of squatting in the Netherlands 2010
- Image of 'armed squatters' largely portrayed by media
- Media discourses in London and Barcelona (together with Galvao)
- Securitisation, threads of squatters to the state
- Internal contradictions, openness vs. critical agenda
- How to counter those?
- How to deal with media depends on individual contexts
- Important for people to do what they do, independent of how it's perceived

Discussion:
- Practical tactics of addressing media representation, it doesn't just happen – it's created: research the owners of a building in detail, why is a building empty, how many people on the waiting list for social housing
- Actively building impressions on cases
- Speculation Research Collective in Amsterdam - http://speculanten.nl/
- Ambivalence about media
- Personal connection needed, interview requests favoured compared to hard data
- By refusing to be interviewed you dig your own grave
- Some squatters don't cooperate with mainstream media but create their own media instead (pirate radio, daily leftist newspapers)
- Then, organise your own media training
- Most media channels have very clear agendas, local media won't publish anything positive about Klinika – Capitalist media
- Communicating with media makes room for distancing yourself from 'other kind of squatters'
- Exercise speaking
- What's concrete media communication tips?
- Strategy to decide on three things which the collective wants to stress and to only speak about these three things to the press
- Internal PR, only one person representing the project to the press
- Avoid vilification
- Investigate the medium and the journalist, make agreements that content isn't altered
- Choose whom to respond to, control the manner images are used
- Squash-campaign.org – strategies - http://www.squashcampaign.org/resources/media-guides/
- Targeted campaign, buying coverage on Facebook – radical change of media landscape, how leverage support on social media
- Journalists have a vision of what is justice and what is moral and expect to find their preconceptions approved
- Squat the media
- Tactic of addressing discourses which intersect with squatting discourse
- Proposal of writing a report on how to deal with media, useful academic production/ collaborative writing
- Media production, take an active role, support alternative media, setting up independent media channels

¶    Mapping Workshop, by Björn
- How to use mapping in actions and research
- Maps as a tool for squatting
- Mapping out squats in Sweden, 1968 -2016 (with Dominika and others)
- Abstract mapping project, location of highway being built visually compared with high density of population, low income areas, number of children, increased pollution
- Map of renovation/ rent increases in Gothenburg
- blockg20.org – 'tourist-like maps', showing prisons, millionaire neighbourhoods, where politicians stay, maps of airports and where planes will land from,

Discussion:
- Mapping current squats is controversial
- Sqek Maps http://maps.squat.net/en/
- berlin-besetzt.de 
- Issue of the squatting movement coming across as an organised mafia, access to database misused by legislators
- Solution of biasing the map by changing addresses of places
- Is it worth to map squats?
- It's useful to the movement itself, only if it's complete
- Useful to new activists, housing activists who are just introduced to squatting – tool for education, way to socialise research
- Memory of the movement – analytical tool, example of Paris: looking at locations in relation with policy making, map effects of strategic political decision making – maps of vacant buildings
- Map as a research tool for book project
- Why are there few squats in the South of Paris? Few networks in the South
- Looking at squats according to timeline/ year

¶    About the SqEK identity

-Do we need an updated Manifesto?
-Our strength is our looseness
-We are always crossing boundaries between activism and academic work
-Our identity is forged in the relations we build
-If direct actions are proposed during the meetings, they should not be discussed openly in the list
-Should we suggest guidelines for the hosting group organising the next SqEK meeting?
-Internal conflicts in Klinika about the organisation of this year´s meeting are neither managed well nor solved yet

¶    Academisation of Sqek, introduced by Andre
 
- 1) High price of books – doesn't want to publish with academic publishers anymore 
- 2) academic style of writing, doesn't want to be restricted anymore (experience with Palgrave book), academic language limits freedom of expressing oneself
- 3) other publishing solutions might be more accessible

Discussion:
- Routledge book, Squatting and Migration – basically free, Routledge didn't interfere with content
- Without academia Sqek wouldn't exist, majority of members involved in academia 
– Publishing online besides in print, cheap printing methods 
– Language issue 
– Style of writing as an obstacle for people to read but militants' style of writing not so different from academic writing 
– If we want to address another audience we'd have to change our style of writing, we need to focus on one or the other
- Contradiction built into Sqek from the beginning, but also a strength 
– Publications are read by many people, Pluto book translated into Turkish 
– Focus more on online publication
- Routledge has the policy to publish books in softcover/paperback after one year, to compensate the high initial price
- Books are generally not expensive, quite accessible, with exceptions
- Publishing is not enough, publishing online is not enough, we need to use more "commercial" ways of advertising our books to reach more people
- We need to translate way more 
– Style of writing is not complicated, situated in a layer of academia which is not difficult to read although it's complex 
- People don't seem to find time to contribute to the popular book
- Book culture is still very relevant within squatting
- If we agree on wanting to produce knowledge, we are doing a good job, with little/ no budget
- Language: re-translate more, English books refused by local library, French only
- Look at the Invisible Committee, To Our Friends, published with MIT Press
- Gender imbalance 
– Rethinking the need to continuously produce knowledge, being more creative in thinking about how to spread things
- A lot of interest and skills that remain untouched, eg. filmmakers – what might a different squatting documentary look like? Informed by academic voices? 
- How to engage a diversity of people within the group? 
- Challenge of collectively doing things together, getting individuals to contribute
- Writing collectively through a Wiki, coordinating small pieces of writing from different contributors
- Sqek Manifesto written collectively
- Founding another collective under another name to produce non-academic writing
- Timeframe of academia is not matching reality
- Antipode special issue took 6 years to get it published
- Distribute pdfs of books again, put books on website, publish short texts online – putting pdfs on the website
- David offered to produce an online repository for uploading publications in Rotterdam last year... we need to follow-up on this 
- Structure for publishing online is there through the website, website currently is not really updated – asking >David for support as he offered it in Rotterdam already?
- Importance of being self-critical, feeling of being one of the only
– Engaging individuals who are involved in struggles, facilitating to share knowledge 
– How to make more connections with individuals who are involved in struggles, giving people a voice, definition of identity
- The issue is how we produce knowledge, engaged squatting in Sweden as a researcher and activist, working with exhibitions, presenting content which has been produced by squatting movements
- Producing zines
- Time for gratification is too long, Trespass as a solution? Quick online publication, peer-review
- Squatting was the entry point, publishing a lot 
- Europe - “what is Europe nowadays?“ 
- Collective “this is not a collective“ 
- We are not just a bunch of "freaks obsessed with squatting", as many from outside may think
– Finding another name? To enlarge the scope
- Small is beautiful
- Books is something activists do not usually do
- Meetings are not for exchanging activist information or performing actions
- We're obscure enough not to be too attractive
- Collective means that a group is cohesive, which we are not – not convinced by a change of name
- Pages about the meetings and about the places we went, producing some pages about the conference, building a relationship with the place where we went 
– Academic tools money, resources, time
- How we present ourselves, through an exhibition – engagement with local activists within the venue of the conference
- Translate 20 page chapters into 2 page contributions, transform a book into a zine
- Time issue for making new kinds of publications
- Collaborated with a friend activist to produce a translation of his dissertation 
- Gender imbalance might be a reason why new members don't engage more deeply
- Gender imbalance founded in societal structures, also of academia 
– Re-naming the collective 
– Inviting individuals from a collective involved in struggles to give presentations but not too many as in Barcelona
- Communicating with the planning group to invite people
- Rather, visiting people in their contexts, visiting local projects
- Engaging with local activists rather than inviting groups from further away
- Starting to produce knowledge about the places we visit, starting with Klinika 
– Engaging with individuals from ZAD, e.g.
- Name proposal: “Squatting Euro-Style Collective“
- “Global Autonomous Self-Organised Project“ as a larger umbrella term which could include other
- Precarious squatting, favelas and shanty towns, squatting projects which are not social movements 
– Name change might be able to include or might exclude other form of squatting which are purely about housing and not about social movements
- Creating a more dynamic platform
- Fusion between different styles of squatting
- We need to share more pdf in the list
- Documentary after the Barcelona SqEK meeting (2015) was quite good
- Upgrade our website
- An exhibition about squatting is going to be open in Sweden for three months
- Squatting Everything Kollective – Squatting Elsewhere Kollective
- Squatting Everywhere networK 

¶    Future Writing Projects

1) Popbook 1, Andre is almost finishing
2) Popbook 2, Gianni suggested another book of a popular type
3) Media Tips Zine, Communication Tips for Activists
4) Trespass Journal
5) Interview Project from Social centers
6) Film (Jeannette, Mia)
7) Photos (Miguel)
8) Archive of Posters
 
1) Andre: the book is pretty much done – native speaker left the process, Andre left by himself – article about Prague? New piece from Athens by City Plaza Hotel – proof reading – getting it done this year, collaboration to get it done, possibilities of proof reading by Linus. Frank? it went well copyediting the palgrave book simply by asking on the list for help with chapters
Price of the book so far: 10 EUR
Layout is done
When the book is done, organise a tour for promoting the book
German publisher: Edition Assemblage – edition of 1500 books
Photos are still needed for some cases, if images come from sqek members, no copyright issues
- Experience from Palgrave book, call on sqek list: proof readers came forward who are usually silent on the list
- Sending information about which cities still need photos through the list to communicate
- Money for printing costs needed?
- Right now, no prediction possible
- Start thinking about distribution, helping the distribution process individually
- Translation possible? Finding translators and publishers in other languages. Could also be translated in chunks, even by authors
- Publishing in German with the same publisher is an option once it's clear that it goes well
- Which languages would be interesting? Italian, French, Spanish, German, Greek?
- Finding funding for translations – Guerilla translation group in Spain, charges less if they believe in the project
- Between 240-280 pages
- Translating in parts
- We asked people could write in a way that is easy for others to understand, collection of articles written about diverse projects – 4-12 pages
 
2) Gianni: Getting the first book done, then thinking of a second publication – idea not very elaborated, yet
- Starting with a chapter about Klinika, collecting information
- Something already written about the Poortgebouw
 
3) Miguel: less academic handbook on how to handle media, critical discourse analysis about media, real estate speculation – create a working group of people interested in working on making a zine – around 30 pages – Communication Guerilla – how to challenge dominant ways to do propaganda – instead of holding a long discussion, collecting tips, recommendations
- Easy to translate
- Shared pad
- Media Camp Meeting to plan the "concept": call after the summer
- Jeannette, Dominika, Edward, Xaviera – working group
 
4) Edward: Trespass is faster if it's only handled by two editors – second issue in autumn this year – submission guidelines, call for papers on the website – peer-review
- Longer more academic texts and shorter 'interventions'
- Languages: Dutch, English, Catalan, Spanish, French
- Not tied to texts, also video included
- People are welcome to help with translations, peer-review
- Is the idea to publish in paper?
- No, mainly published online but print options possible
- Helping with the design of the publication
- Producing content from conferences as resources
- Friends with graphic designer who might be able to help with design
- Opening the editorial committee up to others?
- For now, the editorial team consists of two people which is practical in terms of speed of production
 
6) Jeannette: film project about Enschede
Greta: Ethnographic documentaries – Budapest, media lab facilities – editing, practical considerations?
Pier: video on squatting, power point about squatting project made in Berlin, needed help, introducing the collective as a video, scanning leaflets as content, paired with animations? Recordings of music snippets – distribution through vimeo and youtube
 
7) Miguel: access to huge database of images, photobook – introduction to outsiders – selection of images, how to understand the logics of re-development – aim to create a publication or an online publication/ website
 Julia: many opportunities of what to do with pictures – more than a photo gallery – exhibition with commentaries? Interactive map? Create a narration, see patterns
Edward: stock pile of photos, mostly Rotterdam – comparing historical images with current images of what buildings have become – projections
- Possibility of having another meeting with 'more creative people', eg. Alan Moore – launch a new call for a meeting after the summer – producing a concept for an exhibition or other kind out outcome – media camp – documenting gentrification
 
7) Andre: poster book, with Alan Moore, library of thousands of posters at Bethanien, existing books of posters produced by Bethanien – short text in different languages paired with images – need to secure funding for colour print and design – open call to collectives and internally within sqek – organised by themes/ issues (gender, conflicts, criminalisation, humour)
photo archive of squatting in berlin www.umbruch-bildarchiv.de
- Jeannette: Art/ graphic design?
- Andre: needs a collective to take care of the project
- Edward: ratio of images to text? 70/30? posters would need explanations to give context
 
5) Edward: dialogue between spaces, incite self-reflection – sometimes it's quite chaotic to ask for texts from spaces – activist project to interview – counter inward looking reflections – inspiration: Not For Rent (book), interviews, time document – inspiration: What's This Place (online report), asked people from social centres to speak about their projects, people reflecting about their own projects – compile into a resource on the internet – collaborations possible – parallel to project proposed by Miguel and Domenika on failures and successes
- Hans: archive of students who have been doing interviews
- Squatting, the Real Story (book) “best book ever on Squatting“
- Xaviera: What's the format of the project? Travel to places to do interviews, email contact?
- Edward: preferably travel to places, record in-situ
- Xaviera: better to meet people face-to-face
- Dominika: busy with interviewing people in Sweden, mostly about successes and failures going back to projects from the 60s – also busy with a podcast project
- Andre: what will the outcome be like?
- Edward: whatever is most practical – target audience: the people that are interviewed
- Andre: if format is the same throughout a book it might become dry – interview archive, database
- Julia: „una citá“ magazine of only interviews, published once a month
- Hans: book by Alan Moore about struggle in New York – publication of only raw material will last longer than analyses of conversations