hackerspaces.org regular
2021-06-08 meeting
Table of Contents
¶freenode is dead
dcht00:
i think there's reasonable consensus we're leaving freenode.
let's sketch the options. writing it down does not mean you support a specific option.
options don't neccessarily exclude themselves.
_____________________
general:
* open channels on all networks, leave behind pointers
* update https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/IRC
* moving every now and then is good, it clears out the lurkers and gives the chance for a restart
* we should consider archiving the old channel
* ###
<---------------- general about post-freenode ↑
_____________________
A) move to libera:
make sure matrix is bridged as good as it used to be
A2) move to another IRC server:
###
B) host on matrix primarily:
(and bridge to IRC? is this a thing?)
C) self-host a matrix server on hackerspaces.org:
we need more (dedicated) admins
D) ###
<---------------- post-freenode options ↑
dcht00:
i think there's reasonable consensus we're leaving freenode.
let's sketch the options. writing it down does not mean you support a specific option.
options don't neccessarily exclude themselves.
_____________________
general:
* open channels on all networks, leave behind pointers
* update https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/IRC
* moving every now and then is good, it clears out the lurkers and gives the chance for a restart
* we should consider archiving the old channel
* ###
<---------------- general about post-freenode ↑
_____________________
A) move to libera:
make sure matrix is bridged as good as it used to be
A2) move to another IRC server:
###
B) host on matrix primarily:
(and bridge to IRC? is this a thing?)
C) self-host a matrix server on hackerspaces.org:
we need more (dedicated) admins
D) ###
<---------------- post-freenode options ↑
¶ * libera.chat group contacts
- * cel, jo/jomat, bronsen will act as so-called group contacts for Hso on libera.chat
¶#hackerspace@freenode
2021-06-08 14:37:51 cel hello. is anyone here for this meeting? https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Meetings
2021-06-08 14:42:45 cel agenda + notes: https://pad.pad.land/p/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 14:42:50 cel https://pad.land/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 14:43:01 cel discussion and decisions are taking place in #hackerspaces on libera.chat
2021-06-08 14:43:17 cel we are expecting to change the channel pointer on the wiki page by the end of the meeting
2021-06-08 14:43:36 cel there has been discussion of IRC and Matrix
2021-06-08 14:43:47 cel ^ Hannis hramrach prosodyC
2021-06-08 15:52:20 cel wiki has been updated. notes are being prepared. https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/w/index.php?title=Meetings&oldid=89351
2021-06-08 16:10:11 cel ending meeting
2021-06-08 14:37:51 cel hello. is anyone here for this meeting? https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Meetings
2021-06-08 14:42:45 cel agenda + notes: https://pad.pad.land/p/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 14:42:50 cel https://pad.land/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 14:43:01 cel discussion and decisions are taking place in #hackerspaces on libera.chat
2021-06-08 14:43:17 cel we are expecting to change the channel pointer on the wiki page by the end of the meeting
2021-06-08 14:43:36 cel there has been discussion of IRC and Matrix
2021-06-08 14:43:47 cel ^ Hannis hramrach prosodyC
2021-06-08 15:52:20 cel wiki has been updated. notes are being prepared. https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/w/index.php?title=Meetings&oldid=89351
2021-06-08 16:10:11 cel ending meeting
¶#hackerspaces@freenode
2021-06-08 13:11:28 +brimstone meeting in about an hour from now?
2021-06-08 13:17:30 waterppk1 yep
2021-06-08 14:10:05 cel https://pad.land/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 14:14:17 cel some meeting-esque discussion is happening in the channel on libera.chat. talking about matrix.
2021-06-08 14:15:06 cel i can share the ongoing log or updates if anyone here is expecting to be participating in the hackerspaces.org meeting
2021-06-08 14:18:45 cel it is being discussed updating https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Meetings Freenode -> Libera.Chat
2021-06-08 14:19:39 cel i propose to update it if no principled objections sustained at end of meeting
2021-06-08 15:41:56 +webmind Shall we clean up in here then?
2021-06-08 15:43:54 -- Mode #hackerspaces [+o brimstone] by ChanServ
2021-06-08 15:44:22 -- ChanServ has changed topic for #hackerspaces from "Moin @ https://hackerspaces.org ⚒ Regular meetup on 8th of each month, 18:00 UTC http://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Meetings ⚒ Need Help? https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Help ⚒ spaceapi work in #spaceapi ⚒ Ask questions, lurk for answers (means, more than 60 seconds). ⚒ Need hacking help? https://youtu.be/KEkrWRHCDQU" to "Moved. See: https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Communication#IRC"
2021-06-08 15:44:33 -- Mode #hackerspaces [+z] by brimstone
2021-06-08 15:52:01 cel sounds good. wiki page was updated
2021-06-08 16:08:10 jo|x1 brimstone: could you give me +o/+v so i can change room title on matrix side?
2021-06-08 16:08:43 @brimstone jo|x1: you need +o or +v here to change the room title on matrix?
2021-06-08 16:08:45 -- Mode #hackerspaces [+v jo|x1] by brimstone
2021-06-08 16:08:49 @brimstone how's that work?
2021-06-08 16:08:58 @brimstone do the ACLs map in some strange way?
2021-06-08 16:09:09 +jo|x1 yes
2021-06-08 16:09:24 +jo|x1 mhh, a bit, but not as expected
2021-06-08 16:09:50 +jo|x1 matrix has power levels, default=0, mod=50, admin=100… what you did changed my PL from 0 to 1
2021-06-08 16:10:03 cel ending meeting
2021-06-08 16:10:07 -- Mode #hackerspaces [+o jo|x1] by brimstone
2021-06-08 16:10:13 @brimstone jo|x1: how about now?
2021-06-08 16:10:26 @jo|x1 now i'm 50
2021-06-08 16:10:29 @jo|x1 thats enough
2021-06-08 16:10:33 @brimstone ok great
2021-06-08 16:10:46 @jo|x1 i think currently its not possible to have more than 50 from irc
2021-06-08 16:10:54 @brimstone jo|x1: can you deop yourself when done?
2021-06-08 16:11:40 @jo|x1 i changed it to: #hackerspaces (old, freenode)
2021-06-08 16:12:34 @jo|x1 if that's ok i'd deop me… but i can't change powerlevels as moderator, even my own one, lmao
2021-06-08 16:13:19 cel ending logging. farewall, freenode
2021-06-08 16:13:33 @brimstone jo|x1: lol
2021-06-08 16:14:07 cel *farewell
2021-06-08 13:11:28 +brimstone meeting in about an hour from now?
2021-06-08 13:17:30 waterppk1 yep
2021-06-08 14:10:05 cel https://pad.land/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 14:14:17 cel some meeting-esque discussion is happening in the channel on libera.chat. talking about matrix.
2021-06-08 14:15:06 cel i can share the ongoing log or updates if anyone here is expecting to be participating in the hackerspaces.org meeting
2021-06-08 14:18:45 cel it is being discussed updating https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Meetings Freenode -> Libera.Chat
2021-06-08 14:19:39 cel i propose to update it if no principled objections sustained at end of meeting
2021-06-08 15:41:56 +webmind Shall we clean up in here then?
2021-06-08 15:43:54 -- Mode #hackerspaces [+o brimstone] by ChanServ
2021-06-08 15:44:22 -- ChanServ has changed topic for #hackerspaces from "Moin @ https://hackerspaces.org ⚒ Regular meetup on 8th of each month, 18:00 UTC http://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Meetings ⚒ Need Help? https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Help ⚒ spaceapi work in #spaceapi ⚒ Ask questions, lurk for answers (means, more than 60 seconds). ⚒ Need hacking help? https://youtu.be/KEkrWRHCDQU" to "Moved. See: https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Communication#IRC"
2021-06-08 15:44:33 -- Mode #hackerspaces [+z] by brimstone
2021-06-08 15:52:01 cel sounds good. wiki page was updated
2021-06-08 16:08:10 jo|x1 brimstone: could you give me +o/+v so i can change room title on matrix side?
2021-06-08 16:08:43 @brimstone jo|x1: you need +o or +v here to change the room title on matrix?
2021-06-08 16:08:45 -- Mode #hackerspaces [+v jo|x1] by brimstone
2021-06-08 16:08:49 @brimstone how's that work?
2021-06-08 16:08:58 @brimstone do the ACLs map in some strange way?
2021-06-08 16:09:09 +jo|x1 yes
2021-06-08 16:09:24 +jo|x1 mhh, a bit, but not as expected
2021-06-08 16:09:50 +jo|x1 matrix has power levels, default=0, mod=50, admin=100… what you did changed my PL from 0 to 1
2021-06-08 16:10:03 cel ending meeting
2021-06-08 16:10:07 -- Mode #hackerspaces [+o jo|x1] by brimstone
2021-06-08 16:10:13 @brimstone jo|x1: how about now?
2021-06-08 16:10:26 @jo|x1 now i'm 50
2021-06-08 16:10:29 @jo|x1 thats enough
2021-06-08 16:10:33 @brimstone ok great
2021-06-08 16:10:46 @jo|x1 i think currently its not possible to have more than 50 from irc
2021-06-08 16:10:54 @brimstone jo|x1: can you deop yourself when done?
2021-06-08 16:11:40 @jo|x1 i changed it to: #hackerspaces (old, freenode)
2021-06-08 16:12:34 @jo|x1 if that's ok i'd deop me… but i can't change powerlevels as moderator, even my own one, lmao
2021-06-08 16:13:19 cel ending logging. farewall, freenode
2021-06-08 16:13:33 @brimstone jo|x1: lol
2021-06-08 16:14:07 cel *farewell
¶#hackerspaces@libera.chat
2021-06-08 13:11:21 brimstone waterppk1: about an hour from now, yeah?
2021-06-08 13:17:08 waterppk1 yep
2021-06-08 13:17:23 waterppk1 I have to give someone a hand with the lathe but will be in and out
2021-06-08 13:39:58 cel i would like to attend. not sure how much i will be able to participate though
2021-06-08 13:59:36 jomat Where/How do we meet?
2021-06-08 14:00:19 cel the wiki page https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Meetings says #hackerspace IRC channel on Freenode
2021-06-08 14:00:55 cel however the Communications page https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Communication says Freenode is not recommended
2021-06-08 14:01:19 cel and points to this channel we are in: ircs://irc.libera.chat/#hackerspaces
2021-06-08 14:02:28 cel i have not participated before so am not familiar with the normal meeting procedures
2021-06-08 14:03:12 cos[m] good time to move to matrix officially?
2021-06-08 14:05:06 cel how does matrix compare with irc for meetings?
2021-06-08 14:05:31 jomat Yeah, it's one point of the agenda how we deal with the freenode problem
2021-06-08 14:06:10 +bronsen o/
2021-06-08 14:06:20 cel is there an agenda listed?
2021-06-08 14:07:05 cel found: https://pad.land/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 14:07:17 cos[m] cel: well, it does everything irc does and much more.
2021-06-08 14:07:36 jomat Matrix is just like IRC on steroids: It has profile pics, you can add reactions like thumbs-up to messages, you can have a hierarchical list of rooms, … such things.
2021-06-08 14:08:01 cos[m] for example FOSDEM was organized over Matrix this year. This is quite detailed article on it https://matrix.org/blog/2021/02/15/how-we-hosted-fosdem-2021-on-matrix
2021-06-08 14:09:22 Lomanic[m] I really miss quote replies/citations in IRC
2021-06-08 14:10:12 cos[m] Finnish hackerspaces moved to Matrix few years ago, it has been very successful transition. Folks still using IRC, Telegram and Slack have been kept happy with bridges.
2021-06-08 14:10:17 +bronsen is there a friendly org that would be willing to host our matrix room(s)?
2021-06-08 14:11:03 jomat matrix rooms are federated, they live on all the servers of the users participating in a room
2021-06-08 14:11:14 cel libera.chat is bridged to matrix
2021-06-08 14:11:53 jomat and i set up a server on hackspaces.org to play around
2021-06-08 14:12:35 cel is hackerspaces.org registered as a project or community with libera.chat?
2021-06-08 14:12:38 +bronsen at this point I am willing to give matrix preference over irc, since I assume there is a way to use matrix from irc (bitlbee? bridges?)
2021-06-08 14:13:04 cos[m] Just pick a server from https://publiclist.anchel.nl/ and you're good to go.. Everything is globally federated.
2021-06-08 14:13:27 cel opinion on using libera.chat?
2021-06-08 14:14:11 cos[m] bronsen: there is matrix-ircd.. but do you have a specific reason for staying on IRC?
2021-06-08 14:14:42 +bronsen I think it is acceptable to keep #hackerspaces (irc)here on libera, perhapps #hackspaces as well (one could forward to the other) and have an official matrix room
2021-06-08 14:15:26 jomat this could be our official matrix room bridged to libera
2021-06-08 14:15:26 +bronsen cos[m]: I have reasons that go beyond "i am set in my ways"
2021-06-08 14:15:39 jomat bronsen: from matrix this room looks like this: https://i.imgur.com/DMXFUWf.png
2021-06-08 14:16:52 cos[m] 𝚓𝚘: well, look depends on client. matrix is just a protocol, you can use weechat or any client you like for it. many oldschool irc users prefer weechat.
2021-06-08 14:17:04 cel the view from IRC (weechat): https://room.sudoroom.org/2021/06/08/hackerspaces-irc-14-16-11.png
2021-06-08 14:17:11 jomat i know :-)
2021-06-08 14:17:46 cos[m] matrix ux is practically identical to irc if you use weechat.. for mirc fans there is still no substitute client :-)
2021-06-08 14:18:21 cel opinions on updating https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Meetings Freenode -> Libera.Chat ?
2021-06-08 14:18:22 +bronsen I have not been able to matrix from weechat without a bridge
2021-06-08 14:18:29 +bronsen cel: do it :)
2021-06-08 14:18:55 cel i've let the #hackerspaces channel on Freenode know. no response yet
2021-06-08 14:19:19 cel i'll update if no principled objections sustained at end of meeting
2021-06-08 14:19:59 jomat yes
2021-06-08 14:20:09 jomat i think we can all agree not to use freenode anymore?
2021-06-08 14:20:20 +bronsen cos[m]: jomat: do I understand you correctly that I wouldn't even have to change a thing if we made the matrix rooms official because it is bridged to this irc channel?
2021-06-08 14:20:27 cos[m] but reality (at least in our hackerspace) is that nobody wants to start using IRC, even using matrix is barely acceptable for many. matrix is the only option if you count out closed source centralized alternatives.
2021-06-08 14:21:07 cos[m] bronsen: yes, irc users don't need to do anything. this channel is already on matrix and anyone can join it easily.
2021-06-08 14:21:09 +bronsen I cannot in good conscience recommend a closed source tool nor a walled garden
2021-06-08 14:21:26 cel libera.chat has a web chat
2021-06-08 14:21:41 cel Sudo Room had a new person join IRC recently via web chat in an iframe on the website
2021-06-08 14:22:44 cel is there anything else from https://pad.land/hso-20210608 that needs to be taken care of?
2021-06-08 14:23:08 cos[m] folks today expect you stay in the rooms you join even after closing the client and to have easy mobile clients available. it's impossible to try to sell irc to new users anymore for any serious purposes.
2021-06-08 14:23:39 cel people could commit to be present in channel for "walk-ins"
2021-06-08 14:23:50 +bronsen have facebook sell their personal information then
2021-06-08 14:25:01 cel should we be taking notes in a pad? i am unable to update https://pad.land/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 14:25:03 +bronsen cel: I (well my account) is basically online all the time
2021-06-08 14:25:33 cel bronsen: good. what time zone are you in?
2021-06-08 14:25:38 +bronsen cel: click on "Edit Site" at the very bottom of that pad page
2021-06-08 14:26:03 cel got it, thanks bronsen
2021-06-08 14:26:14 +bronsen uhm I think it is UTC+2 atm
2021-06-08 14:26:32 +bronsen "Europe/Berlin" is what I put in my django settings :)
2021-06-08 14:26:59 cel cool. i'm in America/New_York (UTC-4 currently)
2021-06-08 14:27:24 cos[m] don't get me wrong, i used IRC for 25 years and i love it, but it's not an option anymore. people want something like discord, telegram, slack etc and it's not possible to sell anything much primitive for them. matrix is clearly the future for foss communications.
2021-06-08 14:28:47 +bronsen I am starting to get you wrong though: what are you arguing against?
2021-06-08 14:31:09 cel this seems like a possible long-term conversation. for the meeting... i have a question about logs
2021-06-08 14:31:10 cos[m] Hm, good point. Freenode->Libera.Chat. I think it should be Freenode->[Matrix / Libera.Chat]
2021-06-08 14:31:29 +bronsen let's make it matrix
2021-06-08 14:31:52 +bronsen make it matrix and mention the bridged irc channel
2021-06-08 14:32:08 cos[m] Make it both, as the channel is both
2021-06-08 14:32:45 cel i would mention both
2021-06-08 14:33:13 jomat Yes. Matrix first for the impatient, then IRC.
2021-06-08 14:33:31 +bronsen the irc nutters will find a way :)
2021-06-08 14:33:38 jomat yes :-)
2021-06-08 14:34:40 Lomanic[m] I'm OK with an official matrix room and an alternative IRC bridged room 👍 or the other way around :P
2021-06-08 14:35:06 jomat what would make the difference to the situation now?
2021-06-08 14:35:11 cos[m] matrix is about interoperability, not replacing irc (or anything else). bridge the important rooms to both.
2021-06-08 14:35:14 waterppk1 yeah, I agree I've never used Matrix but with the number of people using Matrix to access this channel clearly it's gaining userbase by the day
2021-06-08 14:35:18 Lomanic[m] It's like the current situation indeed
2021-06-08 14:36:05 jomat ah, so that was your +1 to the current situation :-)
2021-06-08 14:36:40 cel i just realized the wiki page referred to #hackerspace instead...
2021-06-08 14:36:57 cel i'm contacting that channel
2021-06-08 14:37:18 Lomanic[m] I'm OK with the current situation, doesn't look bad. We migrated to liberachat and gained a matrix room, that's cool
2021-06-08 14:37:48 +bronsen as for the irc side: I would like for us to register this channel and its namespace and also #hackspace and its namespace
2021-06-08 14:38:21 +bronsen we would need one registered libera user acting as group contact
2021-06-08 14:38:27 cel +1 it can be more than one.
2021-06-08 14:38:37 jomat yes, there are quite some variants: hackerspace, hackerspaces, hackspace, hackerspaces… i'd keep the hackerspaces variant as main channel as it was always known as #hackerspaces, and add notes to the topic/forwards or sth to the other ones
2021-06-08 14:39:05 +bronsen registering the channel namespaces allows us to easily deal with not-so-aligned entities using #hackerspaces-os or somesuch
2021-06-08 14:39:27 jomat bronsen: yes. can you do that or do you need another registered user?
2021-06-08 14:39:44 +bronsen jomat: I am willing to do that, since I am already doing it for my hackerspaces
2021-06-08 14:39:55 +bronsen eh only one hackerspace actually
2021-06-08 14:40:33 cel +1 to bronsen and jomat as group contacts
2021-06-08 14:40:38 cel i am willing to be a group contact also if that is useful
2021-06-08 14:40:40 +bronsen if someone else is willing to be secondary group contact, that would help in case I am afk
2021-06-08 14:40:56 cel i could be secondary
2021-06-08 14:41:31 jomat i have jo and jomat registered on libera, those can be added
2021-06-08 14:41:50 jomat currently don't know which one i'm prefering :-)
2021-06-08 14:42:35 +bronsen jomat: are those the same account?
2021-06-08 14:42:49 jomat no, different accounts, but both mine
2021-06-08 14:43:16 +bronsen well we could add both and drop either one later
2021-06-08 14:43:19 @jo jomat is currently on matrix, jo on irssi
2021-06-08 14:43:44 @jo is there a limit how many contacts can be added?
2021-06-08 14:44:12 +bronsen I think there is a practical limit, because staff will store this information somewhere
2021-06-08 14:44:30 cel has anyone discussed it with staff yet? bronsen
2021-06-08 14:44:42 +bronsen I have rapport with staff from the old network :)
2021-06-08 14:44:45 cel great
2021-06-08 14:44:49 cel #hackerspace on freenode is registered by webmind
2021-06-08 14:45:07 cel i let the idlers know we are discussing here and plan to update the channel pointer in the wiki
2021-06-08 14:46:10 +bronsen group contacts would be the ones asking for cloaks (if we want those) and dealing with namespace conflicts; they also would be the first persons contacted by staff if needed (has never happened to me)
2021-06-08 14:46:54 +bronsen therefore I'd keep it to three contacts
2021-06-08 14:47:11 cel how does primary/secondary work, and hidden/public?
2021-06-08 14:47:22 jomat ok, then for me i'd choose jomat
2021-06-08 14:47:39 +bronsen they can be changed later without problems: from libera's point of view it is the responsibility of the project to decide
2021-06-08 14:48:03 jomat ah... another thing: we don't have admin rights on matrix side here, only moderator
2021-06-08 14:48:32 +bronsen cel: I assume staff would try primary first, and if there is no response/resolution within a certain time they would ask secondaries
2021-06-08 14:48:57 cel ok
2021-06-08 14:50:05 +bronsen does it make sense to have something like group contacts for matrix?
2021-06-08 14:51:22 cel anyone know how that works?
2021-06-08 14:53:32 cel seems to be unknown.
2021-06-08 14:53:41 +bronsen something for later, then :)
2021-06-08 14:53:53 cel would be okay to mention IRC first in the wiki page? e.g.: "every 8th of each month at 18.00 UTC on the #hackerspaces [[IRC]]/Matrix channel on Libera.Chat"
2021-06-08 14:53:54 +bronsen shall we update the minutes so far?
2021-06-08 14:54:07 cel good idea
2021-06-08 14:54:23 cel to what extent are IRC logs of these meetings considered public or private?
2021-06-08 14:54:34 +bronsen imho: public
2021-06-08 14:55:09 cel could the chat transcript serve as minutes?
2021-06-08 14:55:11 +bronsen with delicate information retracted if needed
2021-06-08 14:55:38 +bronsen (accidental phonenumer or password for example)
2021-06-08 14:56:03 cel yes. if for this meeting, should ask each participant if it is okay for their chat and nick to appear in log?
2021-06-08 14:56:53 jomat as this is a public channel, i see all the information in it as public
2021-06-08 14:57:31 +bronsen I don't think we need extra assent
2021-06-08 14:58:05 jomat everyone participating here should be clear about that imho
2021-06-08 14:58:33 cel ok. does anyone feel otherwise?
2021-06-08 14:58:42 +bronsen I give my consent :)
2021-06-08 14:58:51 jomat probably there are even some users connected without tls :-D
2021-06-08 14:59:14 +bronsen or who log to an unsecured s3
2021-06-08 14:59:20 cel sounds good. i will ping others just in case
2021-06-08 14:59:43 cel jo cos[m] Lomanic[m] waterppk1 brimstone
2021-06-08 14:59:56 @jo B+1
2021-06-08 15:00:02 @jo s/B//
2021-06-08 15:01:19 cos[m] Sounds good.
2021-06-08 15:01:44 cos[m] I was trying to copypaste invite link to this channel, but it seems i'm not able to invite users. Is that on purpose?
2021-06-08 15:02:37 cos[m] "Invite users" power level is set to Moderator, usually it's the default.
2021-06-08 15:04:10 cel updated https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/w/index.php?title=Meetings&oldid=89350
2021-06-08 15:05:26 brimstone hihi
2021-06-08 15:06:29 cos[m] cel: could you add a link to the matrix room to URL https://matrix.to/#/#chat:hackspaces.org
2021-06-08 15:07:08 cel is that bridged to this channel?
2021-06-08 15:07:18 cos[m] That is this channel
2021-06-08 15:07:28 cel ok. is it preferable to libera.chat's matrix?
2021-06-08 15:07:55 cos[m] what do you mean with libera.chat's matrix?
2021-06-08 15:08:10 @jo cos[m]: no, that's not on purpose. we do not have admin here on matrix side yet and can't change those settings.
2021-06-08 15:09:26 cel cos[m]: i mean #hackerspaces:libera.chat
2021-06-08 15:09:52 cos[m] It points to this channel also. It's just an alias, like DNS name.
2021-06-08 15:10:56 cos[m] Anyone with matrix client installed an opening that link should end up here.
2021-06-08 15:10:59 @jo this rooms matrix id is !fBmBGtfevIFUoAdTek:libera.chat and #hackerspaces:libera.chat and #chat:hackspaces.org are just aliases. if we use an alias on our domain as primary alias, changing to another network is easier, if we use the libera one as alias, everyone knows it's this irc channel on this irc network...
2021-06-08 15:11:22 @jo so idk which one is better
2021-06-08 15:11:51 cel ok
2021-06-08 15:11:52 cos[m] they are just names, it's not important
2021-06-08 15:15:05 cel could this be linked to also? https://web.libera.chat/#hackerspaces
2021-06-08 15:15:32 cos[m] in near future (firefox 90->) browsers will support matrix:// urls so no need for matrix.to domain anymore.
2021-06-08 15:15:33 +bronsen I think it should
2021-06-08 15:15:57 cel like this? #hackerspaces [IRC]/Matrix] channel on Libera.Chat''')
2021-06-08 15:18:50 cel pasted into https://pad.pad.land/p/hso-20210608 to try to improve
2021-06-08 15:20:26 +bronsen do we have a way of marking resolutions?
2021-06-08 15:20:41 +bronsen I have missed the last couple of meetings
2021-06-08 15:21:36 cel good question
2021-06-08 15:23:09 jomat i don't think so
2021-06-08 15:26:40 cel the wiki trivia/anti-spam questions slow down wiki editing and previewing
2021-06-08 15:26:56 cel but good for learning new things
2021-06-08 15:29:18 +webmind hilight?
2021-06-08 15:29:53 +webmind ah the meeting was today
2021-06-08 15:30:04 +bronsen it is almost over imho
2021-06-08 15:30:13 cel webmind: the wiki pointed to #hackerspace in freenode. should anything be done about that?
2021-06-08 15:30:34 +webmind what was decided?
2021-06-08 15:30:50 +webmind cel: I would certainly not point it there
2021-06-08 15:30:57 cel agenda suggested "leave behind pointers", "we should consider archiving the old channel"
2021-06-08 15:30:57 +bronsen we only need to fill the minutes; how do we mark resolutions?
2021-06-08 15:31:55 brimstone i'm not sure the best way to close the freenode channel, actually
2021-06-08 15:32:46 +webmind make it +m with a topic of 'here we meditate in silence, we talk elsewhere' ?
2021-06-08 15:32:59 +webmind and wait for it to die out?
2021-06-08 15:33:11 +webmind maybe +i
2021-06-08 15:33:13 brimstone there's +z to allow the ops to see the unvoiced as well
2021-06-08 15:33:22 brimstone there's a onjoin message chanserv can send
2021-06-08 15:33:28 +bronsen I have seen something about making it invite-only, then "/msg chanserv clear #channel see you on the other side" and later dropping it
2021-06-08 15:33:51 +webmind yeah, freenode has been hijacking those I think
2021-06-08 15:34:26 +webmind put plan is to have this place and bridged on matrix?
2021-06-08 15:34:52 +bronsen it is the plan and it already operational: the channel is bridged
2021-06-08 15:35:41 brimstone how about marking the freenode channel as +z, setting the topic to just "Moved. See: https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Communication#IRC" and waiting it out?
2021-06-08 15:35:51 +webmind cel: you from sudoroom?
2021-06-08 15:35:52 -- sknebel is now known as sgreger
2021-06-08 15:36:01 -- sgreger is now known as sknebel
2021-06-08 15:36:04 cel webmind: yes (remote)
2021-06-08 15:36:05 +webmind brimstone: as expected then :)
2021-06-08 15:36:14 +webmind cel: cool, greetings from amsterdam
2021-06-08 15:36:28 cel greetings!
2021-06-08 15:36:30 cel https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/w/index.php?title=Meetings&oldid=89351 - the best i could do at this point
2021-06-08 15:36:44 +webmind I quite liked sudo room when I visited
2021-06-08 15:36:58 cel webmind: are you okay with chat here going in the public pad linked from the wiki?
2021-06-08 15:37:45 +bronsen bloody hell! I can't edit the minutes, some of my browser extensions are interfering
2021-06-08 15:38:22 +webmind cel: for sure
2021-06-08 15:38:29 cel cool. i'm preparing to copy the irc log into the pad, and then i have to go
2021-06-08 15:38:32 +bronsen ah found it
2021-06-08 15:40:08 +webmind shall I close the freenode one then?
2021-06-08 15:43:06 +bronsen I have added a few resolutions at the bottom https://pad.pad.land/p/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 15:44:31 +webmind I have a question, stuff should be considered 'public' does that mean people are also free to publish stuff from here?
2021-06-08 15:44:53 +webmind 'cos I hope not :)
2021-06-08 15:46:12 +bronsen perhaps "not confidential at all" is a better term
2021-06-08 15:46:17 +webmind cool
2021-06-08 15:46:56 +webmind I like 'post like everyone is watching', 'share like everyone has something to hide'
2021-06-08 15:47:22 +bronsen that is a good uhm thing saying
2021-06-08 15:54:00 cel if publishing chat logs for meetings is expected, people participating in meetings should be aware of that
2021-06-08 15:54:20 cel is there a suggested way to remove ip/domain from log?
2021-06-08 15:54:46 cel or should those be kept?
2021-06-08 15:56:12 cel
2021-06-08 15:56:13 +bronsen I'd remove all join/part messages as that would remove all ips and host names here
2021-06-08 15:56:33 jomat i don't care… what's nice on darkfasel is, that the host is replaced by the client cert fingerprint, so you know who's talking ^^
2021-06-08 15:57:38 cel ok
2021-06-08 16:01:02 cel anyone who didn't speak want it to be known they were in the meeting?
2021-06-08 16:03:07 jomat btw: what cel is doing is a bit what https://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot could do… should we reactivate ours?
2021-06-08 16:04:17 cel that could be good
2021-06-08 16:06:35 +bronsen ooh that looks cool
2021-06-08 16:07:30 cel ending the meeting. chat logs for the three channels are in the pad. anyone want to say anything else for the record?
2021-06-08 16:07:52 +bronsen thank you for moderating cel
2021-06-08 16:08:14 cel thanks bronsen
2021-06-08 16:16:14 cel thanks everyone for attending and participating
2021-06-08 16:16:15 jomat just noticed: freenode is still mentioned on communications, but as not recommended. should we remove it or should we move it further down with something like "we're not on freenode anymore"? I'd remove it completely...
2021-06-08 16:16:40 brimstone i'm in favor of removing the string "freenode" completely
2021-06-08 16:19:30 cel remove completely makes sense i think
2021-06-08 16:21:24 +bronsen remove it
2021-06-08 16:23:52 cel there are other things needing updating as well, like the IRC page
2021-06-08 16:25:34 cel chat logs for this meeting are in the pad https://pad.pad.land/p/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 16:26:07 cel would it be good to email the mailing list about this meeting that took place? and announcing the next one?
2021-06-08 16:26:35 +bronsen I think it is good to do so
2021-06-08 16:27:24 brimstone i like that idea too
2021-06-08 16:29:06 cel ok. i'll do it, unless someone else wants to
2021-06-08 16:29:24 cel feels like meeting still in progress. i'll keep copying chat logs until done
2021-06-08 16:29:39 cel please edit if you want to redact something you said
2021-06-08 16:31:06 cel should send to announce or discuss?
2021-06-08 16:34:55 cel does anyone else want to send it?
2021-06-08 16:39:16 brimstone cel: i think you're the one to send it
2021-06-08 16:39:32 cel ok
2021-06-08 16:44:17 cel next meeting is 2021-07-08 18:00 UTC?
2021-06-08 16:45:22 crabbedhaloablut The front page at hackerspaces.org still gives Freenode pride of place
2021-06-08 16:47:21 cel who can change it?
2021-06-08 16:50:05 brimstone can jomat? do they have access to the webserver?
2021-06-08 16:50:21 +webmind freenode channel is locked
2021-06-08 16:52:59 cel thanks webmind
2021-06-08 16:57:17 cel is hackspaces.org the same as hackerspaces.org, or is one preferred?
2021-06-08 16:59:22 waterppk1 if you try joining #reprap on Freenode they set up a bot the DM's you instructions, I don't think it's worth doing something like that but if someone wants to
2021-06-08 16:59:36 waterppk1 gets around the channel getting taken over for mentioning Libera
2021-06-08 17:00:45 psy its not mentioning libera
2021-06-08 17:01:10 waterppk1 oh I know, I was just pointing out another community approach
2021-06-08 17:01:12 psy topic was (when i left) "Here we mourn in silence... elsewhere we talk. For more information see: https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Communication#IRC "
2021-06-08 17:01:56 psy and there was a git(hub?) repo collecting all the channels that moved, maybe we should add #hackerspaces there. let me see if i find it again.
2021-06-08 17:02:18 ms7821 https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus/
2021-06-08 17:02:52 psy thats it, thx!
2021-06-08 17:05:22 cel great
2021-06-08 17:06:40 psy https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus/pull/88
2021-06-08 17:10:21 cel i'm listing meeting attendees in the notes
2021-06-08 17:11:15 cel crabbedhaloablut, ms7821, psy: are you okay with your chats here in these notes? https://pad.pad.land/p/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 17:11:24 crabbedhaloablut yes
2021-06-08 17:12:15 cel cool. i'm marking everyone who chatted as attended, joining a few who are the same person
2021-06-08 17:13:14 ms7821 sure
2021-06-08 17:16:39 psy cel: i'm fine
2021-06-08 17:17:01 cel thanks. i think this is everyone: cel, jomat, brimstone, waterppk1, bronsen, cos, Lomanic, webmind, crabbedhaloablut, ms7821, psy
2021-06-08 17:17:53 +wmd Thanks and good night
2021-06-08 17:18:06 cel take care wmd
2021-06-08 17:21:04 +bronsen so I want to edit https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/IRC_Channel but I can't save my changes because the spam filter is triggered by the text "bit.ly/motioncal". However that text does not appear in the textarea thingie
2021-06-08 17:21:56 cel bronsen: it's in section "Hackerspace IRC Channels"
2021-06-08 17:23:39 cel maybe you can edit the other section to remove it first, or edit the whole page?
2021-06-08 17:24:01 +bronsen this is what I am trying to save: https://gist.github.com/bronsen/1a167e8d15cf07566792ad6522d70479
2021-06-08 17:26:01 cel trying it...
2021-06-08 17:26:43 +bronsen the list is generated by the macro, it is not submitted by me
2021-06-08 17:27:24 cel oh
2021-06-08 17:28:35 +bronsen I am not sure what motionlab.berlin is, looks very commercial
2021-06-08 17:30:11 +bronsen the claim to be a makerspace though
2021-06-08 17:30:50 +bronsen so let's accept that, and wonder instead how they managed to submit a bit.ly link :)
2021-06-08 17:31:04 cel maybe the filter was added after they added it
2021-06-08 17:31:27 cel if we can't override the filter, i think it would make sense to edit their page to remove or change the link
2021-06-08 17:32:23 cel it's listed for irc= and ical=. it redirects to a google calendar
2021-06-08 17:32:46 * bronsen shudders
2021-06-08 17:33:19 cel i'm looking for their website if it links to irc and/or calendar in another way
2021-06-08 17:33:21 cel there is https://motionlab.berlin/de/events/
2021-06-08 17:34:25 +bronsen I mean a google calendar is not IRC
2021-06-08 17:34:40 cel right
2021-06-08 17:34:50 cel https://lite.duckduckgo.com/lite/?kp=-1&kd=-1&q=site%3Amotionlab.berlin+irc -> one result: space api https://spaceapi.motionlab.berlin/
2021-06-08 17:35:01 cel has irc: "https://bit.ly/motionslack"
2021-06-08 17:35:07 +bronsen I'll just remove that one item and see if I then can update the IRC_Channel page
2021-06-08 17:35:26 cel cool
2021-06-08 17:35:37 cel the motionslack link goes to slack but slack is not irc
2021-06-08 17:36:45 cel their spaceapi has an ical link "https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/motionlab.berlin_7dlplu25sjfe66jk57fjn4a7js%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics"
2021-06-08 17:38:04 +bronsen good that seems to have worked
2021-06-08 17:39:58 cel great!
2021-06-08 17:40:56 Lomanic[m] Thanks to all involved, I just read the minutes (was afk), thanks for the write up 🙏
2021-06-08 17:41:27 cel sure thing
2021-06-08 17:41:31 cel email will send shortly. Message-ID: <20210608172051.25c00116.cel@celehner.com>
2021-06-08 17:41:38 cel good day everyone!
testando
Email sent:
https://lists.hackerspaces.org/pipermail/discuss/2021-June/012039.html
2021-06-08 13:11:21 brimstone waterppk1: about an hour from now, yeah?
2021-06-08 13:17:08 waterppk1 yep
2021-06-08 13:17:23 waterppk1 I have to give someone a hand with the lathe but will be in and out
2021-06-08 13:39:58 cel i would like to attend. not sure how much i will be able to participate though
2021-06-08 13:59:36 jomat Where/How do we meet?
2021-06-08 14:00:19 cel the wiki page https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Meetings says #hackerspace IRC channel on Freenode
2021-06-08 14:00:55 cel however the Communications page https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Communication says Freenode is not recommended
2021-06-08 14:01:19 cel and points to this channel we are in: ircs://irc.libera.chat/#hackerspaces
2021-06-08 14:02:28 cel i have not participated before so am not familiar with the normal meeting procedures
2021-06-08 14:03:12 cos[m] good time to move to matrix officially?
2021-06-08 14:05:06 cel how does matrix compare with irc for meetings?
2021-06-08 14:05:31 jomat Yeah, it's one point of the agenda how we deal with the freenode problem
2021-06-08 14:06:10 +bronsen o/
2021-06-08 14:06:20 cel is there an agenda listed?
2021-06-08 14:07:05 cel found: https://pad.land/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 14:07:17 cos[m] cel: well, it does everything irc does and much more.
2021-06-08 14:07:36 jomat Matrix is just like IRC on steroids: It has profile pics, you can add reactions like thumbs-up to messages, you can have a hierarchical list of rooms, … such things.
2021-06-08 14:08:01 cos[m] for example FOSDEM was organized over Matrix this year. This is quite detailed article on it https://matrix.org/blog/2021/02/15/how-we-hosted-fosdem-2021-on-matrix
2021-06-08 14:09:22 Lomanic[m] I really miss quote replies/citations in IRC
2021-06-08 14:10:12 cos[m] Finnish hackerspaces moved to Matrix few years ago, it has been very successful transition. Folks still using IRC, Telegram and Slack have been kept happy with bridges.
2021-06-08 14:10:17 +bronsen is there a friendly org that would be willing to host our matrix room(s)?
2021-06-08 14:11:03 jomat matrix rooms are federated, they live on all the servers of the users participating in a room
2021-06-08 14:11:14 cel libera.chat is bridged to matrix
2021-06-08 14:11:53 jomat and i set up a server on hackspaces.org to play around
2021-06-08 14:12:35 cel is hackerspaces.org registered as a project or community with libera.chat?
2021-06-08 14:12:38 +bronsen at this point I am willing to give matrix preference over irc, since I assume there is a way to use matrix from irc (bitlbee? bridges?)
2021-06-08 14:13:04 cos[m] Just pick a server from https://publiclist.anchel.nl/ and you're good to go.. Everything is globally federated.
2021-06-08 14:13:27 cel opinion on using libera.chat?
2021-06-08 14:14:11 cos[m] bronsen: there is matrix-ircd.. but do you have a specific reason for staying on IRC?
2021-06-08 14:14:42 +bronsen I think it is acceptable to keep #hackerspaces (irc)here on libera, perhapps #hackspaces as well (one could forward to the other) and have an official matrix room
2021-06-08 14:15:26 jomat this could be our official matrix room bridged to libera
2021-06-08 14:15:26 +bronsen cos[m]: I have reasons that go beyond "i am set in my ways"
2021-06-08 14:15:39 jomat bronsen: from matrix this room looks like this: https://i.imgur.com/DMXFUWf.png
2021-06-08 14:16:52 cos[m] 𝚓𝚘: well, look depends on client. matrix is just a protocol, you can use weechat or any client you like for it. many oldschool irc users prefer weechat.
2021-06-08 14:17:04 cel the view from IRC (weechat): https://room.sudoroom.org/2021/06/08/hackerspaces-irc-14-16-11.png
2021-06-08 14:17:11 jomat i know :-)
2021-06-08 14:17:46 cos[m] matrix ux is practically identical to irc if you use weechat.. for mirc fans there is still no substitute client :-)
2021-06-08 14:18:21 cel opinions on updating https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Meetings Freenode -> Libera.Chat ?
2021-06-08 14:18:22 +bronsen I have not been able to matrix from weechat without a bridge
2021-06-08 14:18:29 +bronsen cel: do it :)
2021-06-08 14:18:55 cel i've let the #hackerspaces channel on Freenode know. no response yet
2021-06-08 14:19:19 cel i'll update if no principled objections sustained at end of meeting
2021-06-08 14:19:59 jomat yes
2021-06-08 14:20:09 jomat i think we can all agree not to use freenode anymore?
2021-06-08 14:20:20 +bronsen cos[m]: jomat: do I understand you correctly that I wouldn't even have to change a thing if we made the matrix rooms official because it is bridged to this irc channel?
2021-06-08 14:20:27 cos[m] but reality (at least in our hackerspace) is that nobody wants to start using IRC, even using matrix is barely acceptable for many. matrix is the only option if you count out closed source centralized alternatives.
2021-06-08 14:21:07 cos[m] bronsen: yes, irc users don't need to do anything. this channel is already on matrix and anyone can join it easily.
2021-06-08 14:21:09 +bronsen I cannot in good conscience recommend a closed source tool nor a walled garden
2021-06-08 14:21:26 cel libera.chat has a web chat
2021-06-08 14:21:41 cel Sudo Room had a new person join IRC recently via web chat in an iframe on the website
2021-06-08 14:22:44 cel is there anything else from https://pad.land/hso-20210608 that needs to be taken care of?
2021-06-08 14:23:08 cos[m] folks today expect you stay in the rooms you join even after closing the client and to have easy mobile clients available. it's impossible to try to sell irc to new users anymore for any serious purposes.
2021-06-08 14:23:39 cel people could commit to be present in channel for "walk-ins"
2021-06-08 14:23:50 +bronsen have facebook sell their personal information then
2021-06-08 14:25:01 cel should we be taking notes in a pad? i am unable to update https://pad.land/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 14:25:03 +bronsen cel: I (well my account) is basically online all the time
2021-06-08 14:25:33 cel bronsen: good. what time zone are you in?
2021-06-08 14:25:38 +bronsen cel: click on "Edit Site" at the very bottom of that pad page
2021-06-08 14:26:03 cel got it, thanks bronsen
2021-06-08 14:26:14 +bronsen uhm I think it is UTC+2 atm
2021-06-08 14:26:32 +bronsen "Europe/Berlin" is what I put in my django settings :)
2021-06-08 14:26:59 cel cool. i'm in America/New_York (UTC-4 currently)
2021-06-08 14:27:24 cos[m] don't get me wrong, i used IRC for 25 years and i love it, but it's not an option anymore. people want something like discord, telegram, slack etc and it's not possible to sell anything much primitive for them. matrix is clearly the future for foss communications.
2021-06-08 14:28:47 +bronsen I am starting to get you wrong though: what are you arguing against?
2021-06-08 14:31:09 cel this seems like a possible long-term conversation. for the meeting... i have a question about logs
2021-06-08 14:31:10 cos[m] Hm, good point. Freenode->Libera.Chat. I think it should be Freenode->[Matrix / Libera.Chat]
2021-06-08 14:31:29 +bronsen let's make it matrix
2021-06-08 14:31:52 +bronsen make it matrix and mention the bridged irc channel
2021-06-08 14:32:08 cos[m] Make it both, as the channel is both
2021-06-08 14:32:45 cel i would mention both
2021-06-08 14:33:13 jomat Yes. Matrix first for the impatient, then IRC.
2021-06-08 14:33:31 +bronsen the irc nutters will find a way :)
2021-06-08 14:33:38 jomat yes :-)
2021-06-08 14:34:40 Lomanic[m] I'm OK with an official matrix room and an alternative IRC bridged room 👍 or the other way around :P
2021-06-08 14:35:06 jomat what would make the difference to the situation now?
2021-06-08 14:35:11 cos[m] matrix is about interoperability, not replacing irc (or anything else). bridge the important rooms to both.
2021-06-08 14:35:14 waterppk1 yeah, I agree I've never used Matrix but with the number of people using Matrix to access this channel clearly it's gaining userbase by the day
2021-06-08 14:35:18 Lomanic[m] It's like the current situation indeed
2021-06-08 14:36:05 jomat ah, so that was your +1 to the current situation :-)
2021-06-08 14:36:40 cel i just realized the wiki page referred to #hackerspace instead...
2021-06-08 14:36:57 cel i'm contacting that channel
2021-06-08 14:37:18 Lomanic[m] I'm OK with the current situation, doesn't look bad. We migrated to liberachat and gained a matrix room, that's cool
2021-06-08 14:37:48 +bronsen as for the irc side: I would like for us to register this channel and its namespace and also #hackspace and its namespace
2021-06-08 14:38:21 +bronsen we would need one registered libera user acting as group contact
2021-06-08 14:38:27 cel +1 it can be more than one.
2021-06-08 14:38:37 jomat yes, there are quite some variants: hackerspace, hackerspaces, hackspace, hackerspaces… i'd keep the hackerspaces variant as main channel as it was always known as #hackerspaces, and add notes to the topic/forwards or sth to the other ones
2021-06-08 14:39:05 +bronsen registering the channel namespaces allows us to easily deal with not-so-aligned entities using #hackerspaces-os or somesuch
2021-06-08 14:39:27 jomat bronsen: yes. can you do that or do you need another registered user?
2021-06-08 14:39:44 +bronsen jomat: I am willing to do that, since I am already doing it for my hackerspaces
2021-06-08 14:39:55 +bronsen eh only one hackerspace actually
2021-06-08 14:40:33 cel +1 to bronsen and jomat as group contacts
2021-06-08 14:40:38 cel i am willing to be a group contact also if that is useful
2021-06-08 14:40:40 +bronsen if someone else is willing to be secondary group contact, that would help in case I am afk
2021-06-08 14:40:56 cel i could be secondary
2021-06-08 14:41:31 jomat i have jo and jomat registered on libera, those can be added
2021-06-08 14:41:50 jomat currently don't know which one i'm prefering :-)
2021-06-08 14:42:35 +bronsen jomat: are those the same account?
2021-06-08 14:42:49 jomat no, different accounts, but both mine
2021-06-08 14:43:16 +bronsen well we could add both and drop either one later
2021-06-08 14:43:19 @jo jomat is currently on matrix, jo on irssi
2021-06-08 14:43:44 @jo is there a limit how many contacts can be added?
2021-06-08 14:44:12 +bronsen I think there is a practical limit, because staff will store this information somewhere
2021-06-08 14:44:30 cel has anyone discussed it with staff yet? bronsen
2021-06-08 14:44:42 +bronsen I have rapport with staff from the old network :)
2021-06-08 14:44:45 cel great
2021-06-08 14:44:49 cel #hackerspace on freenode is registered by webmind
2021-06-08 14:45:07 cel i let the idlers know we are discussing here and plan to update the channel pointer in the wiki
2021-06-08 14:46:10 +bronsen group contacts would be the ones asking for cloaks (if we want those) and dealing with namespace conflicts; they also would be the first persons contacted by staff if needed (has never happened to me)
2021-06-08 14:46:54 +bronsen therefore I'd keep it to three contacts
2021-06-08 14:47:11 cel how does primary/secondary work, and hidden/public?
2021-06-08 14:47:22 jomat ok, then for me i'd choose jomat
2021-06-08 14:47:39 +bronsen they can be changed later without problems: from libera's point of view it is the responsibility of the project to decide
2021-06-08 14:48:03 jomat ah... another thing: we don't have admin rights on matrix side here, only moderator
2021-06-08 14:48:32 +bronsen cel: I assume staff would try primary first, and if there is no response/resolution within a certain time they would ask secondaries
2021-06-08 14:48:57 cel ok
2021-06-08 14:50:05 +bronsen does it make sense to have something like group contacts for matrix?
2021-06-08 14:51:22 cel anyone know how that works?
2021-06-08 14:53:32 cel seems to be unknown.
2021-06-08 14:53:41 +bronsen something for later, then :)
2021-06-08 14:53:53 cel would be okay to mention IRC first in the wiki page? e.g.: "every 8th of each month at 18.00 UTC on the #hackerspaces [[IRC]]/Matrix channel on Libera.Chat"
2021-06-08 14:53:54 +bronsen shall we update the minutes so far?
2021-06-08 14:54:07 cel good idea
2021-06-08 14:54:23 cel to what extent are IRC logs of these meetings considered public or private?
2021-06-08 14:54:34 +bronsen imho: public
2021-06-08 14:55:09 cel could the chat transcript serve as minutes?
2021-06-08 14:55:11 +bronsen with delicate information retracted if needed
2021-06-08 14:55:38 +bronsen (accidental phonenumer or password for example)
2021-06-08 14:56:03 cel yes. if for this meeting, should ask each participant if it is okay for their chat and nick to appear in log?
2021-06-08 14:56:53 jomat as this is a public channel, i see all the information in it as public
2021-06-08 14:57:31 +bronsen I don't think we need extra assent
2021-06-08 14:58:05 jomat everyone participating here should be clear about that imho
2021-06-08 14:58:33 cel ok. does anyone feel otherwise?
2021-06-08 14:58:42 +bronsen I give my consent :)
2021-06-08 14:58:51 jomat probably there are even some users connected without tls :-D
2021-06-08 14:59:14 +bronsen or who log to an unsecured s3
2021-06-08 14:59:20 cel sounds good. i will ping others just in case
2021-06-08 14:59:43 cel jo cos[m] Lomanic[m] waterppk1 brimstone
2021-06-08 14:59:56 @jo B+1
2021-06-08 15:00:02 @jo s/B//
2021-06-08 15:01:19 cos[m] Sounds good.
2021-06-08 15:01:44 cos[m] I was trying to copypaste invite link to this channel, but it seems i'm not able to invite users. Is that on purpose?
2021-06-08 15:02:37 cos[m] "Invite users" power level is set to Moderator, usually it's the default.
2021-06-08 15:04:10 cel updated https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/w/index.php?title=Meetings&oldid=89350
2021-06-08 15:05:26 brimstone hihi
2021-06-08 15:06:29 cos[m] cel: could you add a link to the matrix room to URL https://matrix.to/#/#chat:hackspaces.org
2021-06-08 15:07:08 cel is that bridged to this channel?
2021-06-08 15:07:18 cos[m] That is this channel
2021-06-08 15:07:28 cel ok. is it preferable to libera.chat's matrix?
2021-06-08 15:07:55 cos[m] what do you mean with libera.chat's matrix?
2021-06-08 15:08:10 @jo cos[m]: no, that's not on purpose. we do not have admin here on matrix side yet and can't change those settings.
2021-06-08 15:09:26 cel cos[m]: i mean #hackerspaces:libera.chat
2021-06-08 15:09:52 cos[m] It points to this channel also. It's just an alias, like DNS name.
2021-06-08 15:10:56 cos[m] Anyone with matrix client installed an opening that link should end up here.
2021-06-08 15:10:59 @jo this rooms matrix id is !fBmBGtfevIFUoAdTek:libera.chat and #hackerspaces:libera.chat and #chat:hackspaces.org are just aliases. if we use an alias on our domain as primary alias, changing to another network is easier, if we use the libera one as alias, everyone knows it's this irc channel on this irc network...
2021-06-08 15:11:22 @jo so idk which one is better
2021-06-08 15:11:51 cel ok
2021-06-08 15:11:52 cos[m] they are just names, it's not important
2021-06-08 15:15:05 cel could this be linked to also? https://web.libera.chat/#hackerspaces
2021-06-08 15:15:32 cos[m] in near future (firefox 90->) browsers will support matrix:// urls so no need for matrix.to domain anymore.
2021-06-08 15:15:33 +bronsen I think it should
2021-06-08 15:15:57 cel like this? #hackerspaces [IRC]/Matrix] channel on Libera.Chat''')
2021-06-08 15:18:50 cel pasted into https://pad.pad.land/p/hso-20210608 to try to improve
2021-06-08 15:20:26 +bronsen do we have a way of marking resolutions?
2021-06-08 15:20:41 +bronsen I have missed the last couple of meetings
2021-06-08 15:21:36 cel good question
2021-06-08 15:23:09 jomat i don't think so
2021-06-08 15:26:40 cel the wiki trivia/anti-spam questions slow down wiki editing and previewing
2021-06-08 15:26:56 cel but good for learning new things
2021-06-08 15:29:18 +webmind hilight?
2021-06-08 15:29:53 +webmind ah the meeting was today
2021-06-08 15:30:04 +bronsen it is almost over imho
2021-06-08 15:30:13 cel webmind: the wiki pointed to #hackerspace in freenode. should anything be done about that?
2021-06-08 15:30:34 +webmind what was decided?
2021-06-08 15:30:50 +webmind cel: I would certainly not point it there
2021-06-08 15:30:57 cel agenda suggested "leave behind pointers", "we should consider archiving the old channel"
2021-06-08 15:30:57 +bronsen we only need to fill the minutes; how do we mark resolutions?
2021-06-08 15:31:55 brimstone i'm not sure the best way to close the freenode channel, actually
2021-06-08 15:32:46 +webmind make it +m with a topic of 'here we meditate in silence, we talk elsewhere' ?
2021-06-08 15:32:59 +webmind and wait for it to die out?
2021-06-08 15:33:11 +webmind maybe +i
2021-06-08 15:33:13 brimstone there's +z to allow the ops to see the unvoiced as well
2021-06-08 15:33:22 brimstone there's a onjoin message chanserv can send
2021-06-08 15:33:28 +bronsen I have seen something about making it invite-only, then "/msg chanserv clear #channel see you on the other side" and later dropping it
2021-06-08 15:33:51 +webmind yeah, freenode has been hijacking those I think
2021-06-08 15:34:26 +webmind put plan is to have this place and bridged on matrix?
2021-06-08 15:34:52 +bronsen it is the plan and it already operational: the channel is bridged
2021-06-08 15:35:41 brimstone how about marking the freenode channel as +z, setting the topic to just "Moved. See: https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Communication#IRC" and waiting it out?
2021-06-08 15:35:51 +webmind cel: you from sudoroom?
2021-06-08 15:35:52 -- sknebel is now known as sgreger
2021-06-08 15:36:01 -- sgreger is now known as sknebel
2021-06-08 15:36:04 cel webmind: yes (remote)
2021-06-08 15:36:05 +webmind brimstone: as expected then :)
2021-06-08 15:36:14 +webmind cel: cool, greetings from amsterdam
2021-06-08 15:36:28 cel greetings!
2021-06-08 15:36:30 cel https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/w/index.php?title=Meetings&oldid=89351 - the best i could do at this point
2021-06-08 15:36:44 +webmind I quite liked sudo room when I visited
2021-06-08 15:36:58 cel webmind: are you okay with chat here going in the public pad linked from the wiki?
2021-06-08 15:37:45 +bronsen bloody hell! I can't edit the minutes, some of my browser extensions are interfering
2021-06-08 15:38:22 +webmind cel: for sure
2021-06-08 15:38:29 cel cool. i'm preparing to copy the irc log into the pad, and then i have to go
2021-06-08 15:38:32 +bronsen ah found it
2021-06-08 15:40:08 +webmind shall I close the freenode one then?
2021-06-08 15:43:06 +bronsen I have added a few resolutions at the bottom https://pad.pad.land/p/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 15:44:31 +webmind I have a question, stuff should be considered 'public' does that mean people are also free to publish stuff from here?
2021-06-08 15:44:53 +webmind 'cos I hope not :)
2021-06-08 15:46:12 +bronsen perhaps "not confidential at all" is a better term
2021-06-08 15:46:17 +webmind cool
2021-06-08 15:46:56 +webmind I like 'post like everyone is watching', 'share like everyone has something to hide'
2021-06-08 15:47:22 +bronsen that is a good uhm thing saying
2021-06-08 15:54:00 cel if publishing chat logs for meetings is expected, people participating in meetings should be aware of that
2021-06-08 15:54:20 cel is there a suggested way to remove ip/domain from log?
2021-06-08 15:54:46 cel or should those be kept?
2021-06-08 15:56:12 cel
2021-06-08 15:56:13 +bronsen I'd remove all join/part messages as that would remove all ips and host names here
2021-06-08 15:56:33 jomat i don't care… what's nice on darkfasel is, that the host is replaced by the client cert fingerprint, so you know who's talking ^^
2021-06-08 15:57:38 cel ok
2021-06-08 16:01:02 cel anyone who didn't speak want it to be known they were in the meeting?
2021-06-08 16:03:07 jomat btw: what cel is doing is a bit what https://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot could do… should we reactivate ours?
2021-06-08 16:04:17 cel that could be good
2021-06-08 16:06:35 +bronsen ooh that looks cool
2021-06-08 16:07:30 cel ending the meeting. chat logs for the three channels are in the pad. anyone want to say anything else for the record?
2021-06-08 16:07:52 +bronsen thank you for moderating cel
2021-06-08 16:08:14 cel thanks bronsen
2021-06-08 16:16:14 cel thanks everyone for attending and participating
2021-06-08 16:16:15 jomat just noticed: freenode is still mentioned on communications, but as not recommended. should we remove it or should we move it further down with something like "we're not on freenode anymore"? I'd remove it completely...
2021-06-08 16:16:40 brimstone i'm in favor of removing the string "freenode" completely
2021-06-08 16:19:30 cel remove completely makes sense i think
2021-06-08 16:21:24 +bronsen remove it
2021-06-08 16:23:52 cel there are other things needing updating as well, like the IRC page
2021-06-08 16:25:34 cel chat logs for this meeting are in the pad https://pad.pad.land/p/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 16:26:07 cel would it be good to email the mailing list about this meeting that took place? and announcing the next one?
2021-06-08 16:26:35 +bronsen I think it is good to do so
2021-06-08 16:27:24 brimstone i like that idea too
2021-06-08 16:29:06 cel ok. i'll do it, unless someone else wants to
2021-06-08 16:29:24 cel feels like meeting still in progress. i'll keep copying chat logs until done
2021-06-08 16:29:39 cel please edit if you want to redact something you said
2021-06-08 16:31:06 cel should send to announce or discuss?
2021-06-08 16:34:55 cel does anyone else want to send it?
2021-06-08 16:39:16 brimstone cel: i think you're the one to send it
2021-06-08 16:39:32 cel ok
2021-06-08 16:44:17 cel next meeting is 2021-07-08 18:00 UTC?
2021-06-08 16:45:22 crabbedhaloablut The front page at hackerspaces.org still gives Freenode pride of place
2021-06-08 16:47:21 cel who can change it?
2021-06-08 16:50:05 brimstone can jomat? do they have access to the webserver?
2021-06-08 16:50:21 +webmind freenode channel is locked
2021-06-08 16:52:59 cel thanks webmind
2021-06-08 16:57:17 cel is hackspaces.org the same as hackerspaces.org, or is one preferred?
2021-06-08 16:59:22 waterppk1 if you try joining #reprap on Freenode they set up a bot the DM's you instructions, I don't think it's worth doing something like that but if someone wants to
2021-06-08 16:59:36 waterppk1 gets around the channel getting taken over for mentioning Libera
2021-06-08 17:00:45 psy its not mentioning libera
2021-06-08 17:01:10 waterppk1 oh I know, I was just pointing out another community approach
2021-06-08 17:01:12 psy topic was (when i left) "Here we mourn in silence... elsewhere we talk. For more information see: https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Communication#IRC "
2021-06-08 17:01:56 psy and there was a git(hub?) repo collecting all the channels that moved, maybe we should add #hackerspaces there. let me see if i find it again.
2021-06-08 17:02:18 ms7821 https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus/
2021-06-08 17:02:52 psy thats it, thx!
2021-06-08 17:05:22 cel great
2021-06-08 17:06:40 psy https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus/pull/88
2021-06-08 17:10:21 cel i'm listing meeting attendees in the notes
2021-06-08 17:11:15 cel crabbedhaloablut, ms7821, psy: are you okay with your chats here in these notes? https://pad.pad.land/p/hso-20210608
2021-06-08 17:11:24 crabbedhaloablut yes
2021-06-08 17:12:15 cel cool. i'm marking everyone who chatted as attended, joining a few who are the same person
2021-06-08 17:13:14 ms7821 sure
2021-06-08 17:16:39 psy cel: i'm fine
2021-06-08 17:17:01 cel thanks. i think this is everyone: cel, jomat, brimstone, waterppk1, bronsen, cos, Lomanic, webmind, crabbedhaloablut, ms7821, psy
2021-06-08 17:17:53 +wmd Thanks and good night
2021-06-08 17:18:06 cel take care wmd
2021-06-08 17:21:04 +bronsen so I want to edit https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/IRC_Channel but I can't save my changes because the spam filter is triggered by the text "bit.ly/motioncal". However that text does not appear in the textarea thingie
2021-06-08 17:21:56 cel bronsen: it's in section "Hackerspace IRC Channels"
2021-06-08 17:23:39 cel maybe you can edit the other section to remove it first, or edit the whole page?
2021-06-08 17:24:01 +bronsen this is what I am trying to save: https://gist.github.com/bronsen/1a167e8d15cf07566792ad6522d70479
2021-06-08 17:26:01 cel trying it...
2021-06-08 17:26:43 +bronsen the list is generated by the macro, it is not submitted by me
2021-06-08 17:27:24 cel oh
2021-06-08 17:28:35 +bronsen I am not sure what motionlab.berlin is, looks very commercial
2021-06-08 17:30:11 +bronsen the claim to be a makerspace though
2021-06-08 17:30:50 +bronsen so let's accept that, and wonder instead how they managed to submit a bit.ly link :)
2021-06-08 17:31:04 cel maybe the filter was added after they added it
2021-06-08 17:31:27 cel if we can't override the filter, i think it would make sense to edit their page to remove or change the link
2021-06-08 17:32:23 cel it's listed for irc= and ical=. it redirects to a google calendar
2021-06-08 17:32:46 * bronsen shudders
2021-06-08 17:33:19 cel i'm looking for their website if it links to irc and/or calendar in another way
2021-06-08 17:33:21 cel there is https://motionlab.berlin/de/events/
2021-06-08 17:34:25 +bronsen I mean a google calendar is not IRC
2021-06-08 17:34:40 cel right
2021-06-08 17:34:50 cel https://lite.duckduckgo.com/lite/?kp=-1&kd=-1&q=site%3Amotionlab.berlin+irc -> one result: space api https://spaceapi.motionlab.berlin/
2021-06-08 17:35:01 cel has irc: "https://bit.ly/motionslack"
2021-06-08 17:35:07 +bronsen I'll just remove that one item and see if I then can update the IRC_Channel page
2021-06-08 17:35:26 cel cool
2021-06-08 17:35:37 cel the motionslack link goes to slack but slack is not irc
2021-06-08 17:36:45 cel their spaceapi has an ical link "https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/motionlab.berlin_7dlplu25sjfe66jk57fjn4a7js%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics"
2021-06-08 17:38:04 +bronsen good that seems to have worked
2021-06-08 17:39:58 cel great!
2021-06-08 17:40:56 Lomanic[m] Thanks to all involved, I just read the minutes (was afk), thanks for the write up 🙏
2021-06-08 17:41:27 cel sure thing
2021-06-08 17:41:31 cel email will send shortly. Message-ID: <20210608172051.25c00116.cel@celehner.com>
2021-06-08 17:41:38 cel good day everyone!
testando
Email sent:
https://lists.hackerspaces.org/pipermail/discuss/2021-June/012039.html